17:39:26 Um, so welcome to Practice Best Practices Design Contests, Why They Are Usually Bad, and How to Get Better Results Workshop. I'm Den Santoro, I'm Program Manager for Practice Best Practice, among other things.
17:39:39 And I'll be hosting the workshop tonight.
17:39:41 Uh, we'd like to start off by thanking our major sponsor, First Citizens Federal Credit Union. We also want to thank our other generous funders, Rockland Trust Charitable Foundation and the Akushne Dartmouth Fall River Freetown Mattapoissa, New Bedford, Plymouth, Somerset, and Taunton local cultural councils.
17:40:00 Uh, which are local agencies that are supported by the Mass Cultural Council, which is a state agency.
17:40:05 We're also supported by generous and kind support from our partners, the National Park Service,
17:40:10 New Bedford Art Museum Artworks, New Bedford Co-Creative center, New Bedford Creative and S&G Project Gallery Art Brokerage.
17:40:21 So, we also want to thank Jim McQuarrie, Melanie Howell, and Ryan Norman, who are our panelists this evening, for taking time from their busy lives
17:40:29 Uh, to be on our panel tonight and take time to answer your questions.
17:40:33 A few notes before we begin.
17:40:37 If you have questions during the workshop, please type them into the chat. Some of our board members and I will be monitoring the chat, and when we select your question, we'll ask you to unmute so you can ask your question out loud.
17:40:48 This will also give you the ability to ask follow-up questions if needed, and if you prefer for us to read your question rather than ask it yourself,
17:40:56 Um, then type that in with your question.
17:41:00 Please keep yourself on mute during the presentations. You can unmute when asking questions.
17:41:05 We ask you to put your Zoom in speaker mode rather than gallery mode, as it will give you more screen to see the
17:41:13 presentations. Um, and closed captioning is available. You can turn it on with the CC icon at the bottom of your screen. We are also running it at this point. You can see that image on the slide of what it looks like.
17:41:27 Alright. Um…
17:41:29 We'll also have a short survey, um, that we'll post near the end of the workshop, and hopefully you'll take some time and fill it out. You'll do it right here in the meeting. Feedback is important to us.
17:41:39 Also, you can add comments about the workshop in the chat as we're wrapping up, or you can email them to contact at practicewithpractice.com.
17:41:48 We are recording tonight.
17:41:49 Um, and we'll be putting the recording of the workshop up on the website, and the transcripts as well.
17:41:57 Uh, that happens within a few days, um, and we'll let everybody know who was here, and we'll let our
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17:42:12 Um, and although our workshops are always free, they do cost us to produce,
17:42:16 So if you would like to make a tax-deductible contribution to Practice Best Practice, you can find the donate button at the top of our website on every page.
17:42:25 Now, without further ado, let me introduce our panelists for tonight.
17:42:30 Jim McQuarrie is a semi-retired cartoonist, illustrator, and graphic designer, currently taking on occasional projects through his studio, Lancer Creative Services.
17:42:39 He says it's like Freelancer, but it's not free. Um, he has also written on this topic that we're covering tonight, um, and has been… his writings have been distributed fairly widely.
17:42:50 Melanie Howell is the Director of Marketing and Community Connection with First Citizens Federal Credit Union, a community-focused credit union
17:42:58 prioritizing local impact and support. Throughout her time with the credit union, she has found unique ways to pivot their marketing efforts from products and sales to volunteer work, nonprofit support, donation drives, and more.
17:43:11 Right? Norman is a community support partner with First Federal, First Citizens Federal Credit Union. It's marketing and community team. He's dedicated to supporting the Massachusetts South Coast community in new and unique ways,
17:43:23 He oversees volunteer collaborations, grant coordination, for First Citizens Charitable Board, as well as sponsorship opportunities with local organizations and non-profit.
17:43:33 Melanie and Ryan also worked through, um, considering funding a mural and finding the muralist with a design contest, but instead went through a process that treated the muralist as creative professionals,
17:43:44 Resulting in a mural people are happy with, while muralists got paid and treated well. They have a lot more detail in their bios online, so please go to the workshop page on our website.
17:43:56 to see that. Alright, and without further ado, I'm going to hand things over to…
17:44:04 to Jim, who's gonna start talking about some of his experience in this area.
17:44:09 Well, thank you. Um, okay, so I've been…
17:44:13 a cartoonist for a long time. I sold my first cartoon in 1975 when I was 14 years old.
17:44:20 Usually it's earlier than that. I did a cartoon for the LA Kings Booster Club when they were a brand new team and didn't have a fan organization yet.
17:44:29 And, um, so I… I've worked in…
17:44:35 weird little screen printing shops designing embroidered patches for outlaw biker gangs.
17:44:40 And in corporate America, in corporate marketing departments and boutique studios, and ad agencies, and
17:44:50 working for manufacturers, doing everything from trade show booths to
17:44:55 product instruction manuals, and…
17:44:58 Some photography. Basically, I've created art for everything from the side of a thimble to the side of a hotel.
17:45:04 Um, and these days, I coach archery.
17:45:07 But aside from all of that, for much of… for all of my life, um,
17:45:12 when I was in second grade, I discovered Batman, and I ain't been right since.
17:45:17 Um, I've been a huge comics fan, and for a while, I was a moderator at a comic book message board.
17:45:22 Where fans and pros would talk about the business, and this is where…
17:45:28 My knowledge of this, uh, topic
17:45:31 started, um,
17:45:34 there was always… there were people who would pop up and try to solicit artists to work on their independent comic books.
17:45:40 And they always had skeevy bad deals.
17:45:43 And at one point around 2006,
17:45:48 Um, I actually started about 2005. There was a guy in upstate New York,
17:45:52 Who is now deceased. He died of, uh…
17:45:56 cancer after being a cancer on the world for quite some time.
17:46:00 He was running a number scans… scams. He had a fake non-profit, he would get people to donate
17:46:07 comic books to go to kids in the hospital, but he would…
17:46:12 go through the collections, pick out anything valuable, and then dump the rest at the Salvation Army and get a tax deduction for it.
17:46:18 Um, he was running… he ran conventions where he would convince artists and writers from the big
17:46:24 companies to come to the convention, all expenses paid, but there was always some problem with the bank, and he had to promise to reimburse them their travel expenses when they got there.
17:46:33 And they would get there and find out they didn't have a hotel reservation, and he wasn't going to reimburse their…
17:46:39 Uh, travel expenses. I know one artist took 3 years to finally get their plane tickets paid for.
17:46:44 Um, and he also published comic books.
17:46:48 Or tried to. He would hire artists,
17:46:50 and writers, and offer to pay them, quote, Marvel rates, which is, you know, $300 a page or more for drawing
17:46:58 Penciling. And he would always be a problem with the payment. They would start drawing, they'd send him pages,
17:47:05 He would say, oh, I sent the money, oh, it didn't go through, oh, there was a transfer problem, oh, the money… I gotta transfer some money around my accounts, oh, my investor didn't send me the check.
17:47:15 Months and months and months until they finally stopped drawing and demanded their money, and then he would say, well, go ahead and quit, but if you tell anybody that I ripped you off,
17:47:24 I'll sue you because you signed a non-disclosure agreement.
17:47:27 Um, and they got away with this for years.
17:47:30 Uh, until a bunch of us were so offended by him, and I'm gonna start my presentation now with that point.
17:47:37 Um…
17:47:39 a bunch of us… let me go to that page. Okay, so I'm going to share this. Hold on while I get it started.
17:47:46 Um… God…
17:47:49 Where's my page? Come on, where's my page?
17:47:56 slideshow. Okay, starting with slideshow. Here we go.
17:47:59 Okay, so that's about me. That's what it… We created a group called Unscrewed.
17:48:04 The name is simply, this guy was screwing people, and we wanted to unscrew them and get them…
17:48:09 We raised money for people to file small claims cases against him. We raised money and gave it directly to artists who were worried about how they were going to pay their mortgage, or…
17:48:19 feed their kids because they'd been waiting months to get paid for their artwork.
17:48:23 We, um, also…
17:48:26 kind of served as an advisory committee that people would write in and say, I got this offer, do you think I should do it?
17:48:32 And so on and so forth.
17:48:35 And, um, along the way, I ended up looking at about a half a dozen different contracts from different would-be publishers, and in some cases, big companies like
17:48:44 Tokyo Pop, as you see on the screen there, Tokyo Pop…
17:48:47 was running a pilot program, looking for new artists, and they called that, uh…
17:48:53 These shining Stars program, and I want to go over some of the points in their contract. So this is…
17:49:00 their contract, you notice it's written in this very chummy, very informal, friendly kind of way.
17:49:07 Um,
17:49:09 And what they want to do is put you off guard here.
17:49:12 And make you realize that, uh, you know, forget that you're actually… this is a contract, and it's written in this…
17:49:19 shipper-friendly, we're just gonna sit down and have a conversation. It goes so far as that they call it a PAC.
17:49:25 This pact is your contract, but they will never use the word contract again.
17:49:29 And uh… so…
17:49:32 you know, it's an agreement to have some serious fun together.
17:49:36 And as we go through it, you see over and over again that every page, they add in one more little thing that is their exclusive right.
17:49:43 Okay, so they tell you not to, uh…
17:49:46 Uh, right here at the beginning, um, you won't get paid until we've received and approved the completed materials. What they mean there…
17:49:55 is that you're gonna draw 24 to 36 pages of
17:49:59 the first chapter of a graphic novel you want to publish, and they're going to take that and decide whether to move forward.
17:50:07 You can do 36 pages of drawing, and then they go, nah, we're not interested.
17:50:11 And, uh, you don't get paid for it. So that's always fun. And then…
17:50:16 Really important.
17:50:18 Do you promise to protect us from claims?
17:50:21 If they get sued by anyone for any reason, and the suit happens to mention your project, you are legally on the hook for all the legal costs, all the lawyer's fees, discovery, everything.
17:50:32 And if they lose the lawsuit, you have to pay the damages, and they don't have to do anything.
17:50:38 And that's nice to know, okay? One of the reasons that they can decide to reject your project in there…
17:50:45 which you'll… down here, deciding to notice…
17:50:48 Throughout this document, you'll see things like…
17:50:52 And… this, that, and the other, and more, and this isn't a comprehensive list. Well, they run through a series of bullet points about, um,
17:51:03 reasons why they can turn down your book.
17:51:06 And it, um, includes one bullet point that says,
17:51:10 We don't understand the story or what the characters are supposed to be doing.
17:51:16 Yes, this is subjective,
17:51:18 But we… but you agree that we can be subjective.
17:51:21 Well, now you've contractually agreed that they can be subjective, and they can reject your work for any reason or no reason. They just subjectively don't want to do it.
17:51:30 And you're at all the time you put in.
17:51:33 And that's just it. But wait, it gets worse.
17:51:38 They get to, um, they have an exclusive… oh, and I love this, that they… they… let's see…
17:51:44 Um, they can go ahead and publish your Manga Pilot, which is supposed to go to a book online to get the audience reaction and not pay you for it.
17:51:54 And then they can come back and say, we liked it, we want you to do a second one. So you get to do another 20…
17:52:02 4 to 36-page chapter.
17:52:04 under the same terms as the first one.
17:52:08 with no opportunity to upgrade, negotiate for a better contract, or anything else, you're stuck on the hook with what they want to give you.
17:52:16 Then there's the, uh…
17:52:24 Uh, let's see… yeah, rights you give us… oh, this is my favorite part here. We gotta talk about this. The moral rights and your credit.
17:52:33 Moral rights is a fancy term. The French thought it up, that basically has to do with having your name attached to your creation, your credit, and your right to approve or disapprove certain changes, blah blah blah blah blah.
17:52:45 In order for us to adapt the manga pilot,
17:52:49 We want to do this under the terms of this pact instead of under some fancy French idea.
17:52:55 And so on. So what they're saying is, first of all, a little casual, uh,
17:53:01 Ethnic slur thrown in, suggesting that moral rights are just some
17:53:04 stupid idea that those wacky French people thought up.
17:53:07 Ignoring the fact that it's the law all over the world, it's… moral rights are specifically called out in the Canadian copyright laws, for instance.
17:53:15 It's been part of the Byrne Convention, international copyright law, since 1928, but we're going to ignore that.
17:53:21 They're just gonna go ahead and lie about what's included in your mortal rights.
17:53:25 They say it's just your name to have your
17:53:28 You have the right to have your name on your work, and…
17:53:31 approve whatever they want to change.
17:53:33 But there's a lot more to moral rights of the artist.
17:53:38 Um, Betsy Rosenblatt of the Harvard Law Schools says the more… the term moral rights
17:53:44 First, to the ability of authors to control the eventual fate of their works.
17:53:49 An author is said to have the moral right to control her work.
17:53:51 The concept of moral rights thus relies on the connection between an author and a creation.
17:53:56 The scope of a creator's moral rights may include the creator's right to receive or decline permission for their work,
17:54:04 or use a pseudonym.
17:54:06 Or to prevent their work from being altered without their permission to control who owns the work,
17:54:11 to dictate whether or in what way the work can be displayed and or to receive resale royalties.
17:54:20 Um, but they don't want to do that, so they're going to give you an exclusive deal here.
17:54:25 Um, which basically…
17:54:31 We can do whatever we want with your work, and you don't get another nickel for it.
17:54:35 beyond the fee that you're paid up front.
17:54:38 And uh… they keep mentioning exclusive, exclusive,
17:54:43 Oh, and I want to go back, okay. Manga ancillary rights, that's a good point.
17:54:49 co-owning the rights, that's… this is important. All that exclusive stuff?
17:54:54 They own, they co-own your work forever. If you decide that you want to walk away, you can never republish that book, that chapter, you can't use it, you can't develop the project without them.
17:55:06 Ever. If they want to make a TV show,
17:55:08 or a movie, or, um…
17:55:12 Yeah, create…
17:55:14 collectible stuffies, or…
17:55:16 Make a triple X-rated porn version, you have to let them.
17:55:20 Because they co-own it.
17:55:22 And that's what's in there.
17:55:24 And, um, they can hire somebody else to do prequels, sequels, spin-offs, adaptations.
17:55:30 do whatever they want. They're really good with the weasel words.
17:55:33 The important point…
17:55:36 Um, never sign a contract that includes vague clauses like and more, because it's simply giving everything away. And this also illustrates a really important point, which is that
17:55:47 chummy-friendly, informal, conversational writing is just as deceptive and manipulative and exploitative as
17:55:55 confusing legalese.
17:55:56 Do not be fooled that it's… because it's not written like a lawyer wrote it.
17:56:00 It's written like the way somebody thinks teenagers talk.
17:56:04 it's still, um, an exploitive, terrible contract.
17:56:08 And that's why I showed you that. But…
17:56:11 Having looked at about a half a dozen different exploitive, crappy contract… con…
17:56:17 contests and, uh, contracts like this.
17:56:20 I was kind of well-primed for when DC Comics announced their
17:56:25 art contest back in 2013,
17:56:29 break into comics with Harley Quinn, where they wanted to get
17:56:34 artists to, um…
17:56:38 try to win the chance to draw a page of a Harley Quinn comic book.
17:56:43 And get paid for it, working alongside amazing talents.
17:56:46 And, um…
17:56:49 The problem there, a lot of people reacted really badly to this… to this, uh…
17:56:54 campaign, this… this contest,
17:56:57 99% of them reacted badly to the fact that part of the script that they provided that you're supposed to draw
17:57:05 has Harley Quinn attempting suicide in a multitude of different ways.
17:57:09 Worse, one of those is she's naked in the bathtub and about to throw a toaster in.
17:57:14 Uh, so people blew up and said, well, um,
17:57:18 you're advocating, you're making light of suicide, and you're sexualizing suicide,
17:57:24 And it's vulgar and crass, and by the way, next week is National Suicide Prevention Week.
17:57:30 So, you are really, really tone-deaf and dumb.
17:57:33 Um, and that was the…
17:57:36 popular firestorm that the contest was greeted with, but me…
17:57:42 I was more interested in the rules, so I posted on Facebook about, hey, you lost me at Contestants for a Job.
17:57:48 And explain that it's an abusive and offensive practice, and I got into kind of a debate
17:57:53 with a bunch of my friends.
17:57:56 Um, and fellow artists and fans and such about whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, um, or crass to, uh…
17:58:06 participate in this kind of art contest.
17:58:09 And that's why I wrote an article for, um, my own website. I'm going to go over that, but I want to look at the con… what I did, I went and looked at the concept… the contract,
17:58:19 that DC was offering, that you had to sign in order to submit your entry. And it says, I will have no rights whatsoever in the artwork.
17:58:27 I will not be titled to any compensation for any exploitation of… they have the right to use my art any way they want in promoting this contest.
17:58:36 And soliciting, you know, attention for their book,
17:58:40 And I get paid nothing for that.
17:58:43 I only get paid for the one page that they're gonna let me draw for the comic book.
17:58:46 And then I will have no right to reproduce, publish, or otherwise use my artwork, because they own the copyright.
17:58:54 Um, and that's what they offered.
17:58:56 So I wrote an article, I have a website, um, when I… I… I…
17:59:02 always worked under…
17:59:04 Yeah, as an employee, as a graphic designer and illustrator,
17:59:08 Uh, but I always did stuff on the side, a lot of it for pro bono, for…
17:59:13 worthy nonprofits, but um…
17:59:14 I have this website where I would write things,
17:59:17 about the art industry and such. And, uh, I wrote one called Pay the Artist, where I explain about why art contests are a bad idea.
17:59:26 And about, oh gosh, that was 2013, and about 6 years ago, I reposted it over on, uh, on Reddit in response to…
17:59:36 An ad for an art contest on the logo design subreddit, and I basically…
17:59:41 created and kind of edited down version of the key points from my article.
17:59:45 Which is what Den saw, and that's how we end up
17:59:49 Um, here.
17:59:51 this. Um, the…
17:59:53 The graphic Artists Guild has written at length about why, um,
18:00:01 Art contests are bad.
18:00:02 They call it working on spec.
18:00:05 Um, and I'll get to that. So, why are art contests bad?
18:00:10 First of all, I have to say this.
18:00:12 As exploitive…
18:00:14 And manipulative, and shady as some art contests are, most of them are put up in good faith by people who really don't understand that they're doing something kinda not good.
18:00:26 The negative outcomes I'm going to talk about are not intentional.
18:00:29 Nobody wants to screw over artists, or very few people do. I look at it this way.
18:00:35 The tobacco companies didn't want to give people lung cancer, they just wanted to make a buck.
18:00:40 Corporations don't want to cause climate change, they just want to keep their stock price up. Pesticide companies are not trying to kill off all the bees.
18:00:47 It happens anyway.
18:00:49 they don't… art contests aren't setting out to be bad for artists, they're not intentionally bad for artists.
18:00:54 But they're bad for artists. And here's why. First of all,
18:00:59 It's not a contest, it's working on specs.
18:01:02 Graphic Artist Guild says, working on speculation, the demand that a designer or illustrator create work for free in the hope or speculation that they might be compensated for their labor.
18:01:12 work on spec often takes the form of contests.
18:01:16 Artists produce work for free in competition for a prize.
18:01:21 And usually, the contest owner
18:01:24 claims that they own all of the rights to all of the entries.
18:01:29 Here's the International Council of Design says the same thing.
18:01:33 that art contests are banned. They undermine the value of design and the professional standing of designers.
18:01:40 engages designers in any kind of uncompensated work, including competitions of a speculative nature, so we don't license that.
18:01:48 Exploitive contrasts! Here's… here's a typical…
18:01:52 Art contests, you'll find this boilerplate in almost every art contest you see.
18:01:57 All entries become the property of the sponsors.
18:02:01 by entering the contest, you agree to assign any or all of your rights
18:02:05 to the sponsors of the contest. What does that mean?
18:02:08 That means that they take the winner's
18:02:11 ad, the winner's campaign, or design, or whatever, and they use it for a while, and when it's time for a refresh,
18:02:17 They grabbed the second best losing entry and use it for free.
18:02:21 Because they own it. And then they can just go through the whole file. They could take a design they really like and hand it to somebody else and say,
18:02:27 Here, take these 3 losing designs and combine them into one that we like. We like the colors on this one and the type on that one, and the picture on that one. Put them together and see how it comes out.
18:02:38 And they don't have to pay you.
18:02:42 These contents are exploited because they target naive people. They're always aimed at students and amateurs.
18:02:48 who really want to get into the field and do not understand the realities of the field. And it teaches them to devalue their work.
18:02:56 And that is…
18:02:58 An ongoing problem in the art field. I mentioned it exploits conditioning based on the artist's paradox, and I bet you'll get this.
18:03:07 There is a widespread belief among
18:03:12 people who are not artists.
18:03:15 that artists are magical people. They… we just wave our fingers. We've been touched by the gods.
18:03:21 And we just wave our fingers, and Art just falls out of our fingertips, and it's easy, and it's fun, and we do it all the time without even thinking about it, and it gives us incredible joy and satisfaction to do.
18:03:33 And because we have this gift of the gods,
18:03:36 We have a moral obligation to give it away freely to anyone who asks.
18:03:41 Artists who demand to be paid for their work
18:03:45 are said to be selling out, and they are unworthy of their talent.
18:03:50 asking to get paid, that's a betrayal of the gift.
18:03:55 But here's the paradox.
18:03:57 That art that you can create so easily, sure, um, because you were a magical person with talent,
18:04:08 The minute it leaves your hands and belongs to someone else, it is suddenly a valuable commodity, and it has worth, and it can be sold, it can be…
18:04:18 exploited and licensed and distributed, and every time it's used, somebody has to pay the owner for it. The owner owns it and gets to control it. The only person who's never supposed to profit from their work
18:04:29 is the person who created it.
18:04:31 Artists are supposed to work for the love of it.
18:04:34 Ah, come on, you really… it's easy, just… just… I just need a little drawing. Go ahead and just sketch me out something. Getting paid? No, we don't do that, because…
18:04:43 we don't value… we don't consider art to be a profession.
18:04:47 Another exploitive thing is usually an entry fee. In addition to giving them your free work, you have to pay to enter.
18:04:53 And usually, the prize…
18:04:55 pays about somewhere between half and a tenth of what the job would bill if they were a client.
18:05:01 But it's usually for a high-profile thing, and it's great exposure, and uh…
18:05:08 it devalues art.
18:05:10 He makes art.
18:05:12 a hobby, and artists are people who are just playing in… playing with crayons.
18:05:17 Um, and why would you pay market rates if you can get amateurs to give you their work?
18:05:22 for free, in hopes of winning a cheap prize.
18:05:25 The other problem with that is usually the judges on the art contest are not artists or art directors or people with experience evaluating art.
18:05:34 It's often the audience, or a youth panel, or the executives at the company.
18:05:40 Somebody who needs to be taken by the hand and explained why this design is good and not one is bad, but there's nobody to do that, and they don't have expertise in judging art, so we get bad art.
18:05:52 Here are my key points. A job is not a contest, and a paycheck is not a prize.
18:05:57 Okay? Art is a job. People go to school and learn and study and practice and learn.
18:06:04 to be artists and a contest.
18:06:07 says, well, anyone can enter if you… this is your first time ever doing anything, we will consider you equally valid to the guy with a Master of Fine Arts.
18:06:16 And a paycheck is…
18:06:18 Getting paid is a contractual agreement based on the labor involved, that's it.
18:06:22 It's good exposure! My answer to that has always been people die of exposure.
18:06:28 Try paying your utility bills with exposure. Try… try… go to the grocery store and try to get groceries for exposure. They, um, they don't do it. You're not an Instagram influencer. You don't need exposure, you need paying clients.
18:06:41 Um, try it with another job!
18:06:43 Can you imagine a plumber or a computer programmer agreeing to work for Exposure?
18:06:48 Now, picture this.
18:06:50 Somebody calls you up and says, we want you to come in and work a shift for free.
18:06:55 We'll also have a bunch of other people come in and work a ship for free, and then we'll pick a winner, and everybody else gets nothing, and…
18:07:02 The winner will probably not get hired after the end of their shift, we're just gonna, you know, give them a prize and send them home, and next time we need work done, we'll run another contest.
18:07:11 Does that sound like a good deal?
18:07:13 Or how about this? I need to have my house rewired, so I'm gonna run a contest. I'm gonna get 10 electricians to each come in, and they'll each rewire one room of my house for free,
18:07:25 And at the end, I'll decide which one did it best, and I'll hire them to do the rest of the house.
18:07:29 And at that point, the rest of the house will be the porch lighting.
18:07:32 Does that sound like a good deal?
18:07:35 I don't think so. So, my final word on our contests is pay the artists.
18:07:43 And we go. And that's what I have to say.
18:07:46 about art contests, and why the way they're usually done is bad.
18:07:55 Well, that was quite thorough.
18:07:57 I thought so.
18:07:58 And well presented, I…
18:08:00 I just hit all the bad sides of art contests, and now you guys can tell me how to do it right.
18:08:06 Well, what I'm going to do now is, um, pass it over to Ryan and Melanie.
18:08:13 um, actually did, um,
18:08:16 a process that went from thinking about doing a contest for a muralist to doing a mural
18:08:22 Um, after contracting with someone, and I'm gonna let them tell you all about how that went.
18:08:27 Okay.
18:08:30 Let me pull up the screen share.
18:08:31 Did you… you want to pull it up?
18:08:33 Awesome. So Ryan and I will just kind of take turns here telling you…
18:08:39 Um, all about our journey, and the process we kind of went through.
18:08:45 There we go.
18:08:47 And really hope we can kind of speak to,
18:08:49 different organizations, you know, in our community and beyond, because
18:08:53 Um, you know, I'm… and thank you, Jim, for kind of mentioning this, but a lot of times, we have no malice or, you know, ill intent. We…
18:09:02 have this fun idea, and you know, I think you see organizations and companies and, um, places do it all the time, like, let's do this fun art contest. We want just engagement from the community. We want people to get…
18:09:13 engaged and have fun, and…
18:09:14 Um, participate, so we think…
18:09:17 contest is just how you do it. It's fun, and that's how people are going to
18:09:21 play along, if you will. Um…
18:09:24 But, uh, if you want to go to the next slide, Ryan.
18:09:28 we can kind of tell you about…
18:09:30 The idea we had, um, so, you know, we are looking for ways to, again, engage community, um, specifically, we love to connect. We like to connect
18:09:39 different people, um, with different areas in the community, so we had this idea to, um,
18:09:46 to tap into the art community, and…
18:09:50 try to help them by getting them, um,
18:09:54 at the time, I guess maybe more the exposure side of things, by connecting them with a project, um, and Children's Advocacy Center is somebody we
18:10:02 hold very near and dear to our heart, and…
18:10:04 Um, they are a non-profit, and this one is the Bristol County Children's Advocacy Center, and they do such amazing work for the children in our community. Um, things that are unimaginable that we probably could never do on a day-to-day basis.
18:10:17 Um, so we're always trying to do things for them that's far beyond a monetary donation. Obviously, that goes a long way, of course, but we want to do things like, you know, they have a trunk or treat, so we're there with our van, dressed up in Scooby-Doo,
18:10:31 giving candy out to the kids. That's what we like to do.
18:10:34 So, um, knowing that in the back of our head, we kind of want to do something this year specifically to help
18:10:39 Um, an artist in the community, um,
18:10:42 we thought that, you know, they have a beautiful space in the backyard, and they had done some work on half of it, but the other half was kind of…
18:10:50 gray and grim. Um, and this is a space that they bring children out there and have some therapy sessions.
18:10:56 Um, get them to kind of, like, loosen up and start chatting.
18:11:01 So, and again, you have to keep in mind they've been through some devastating things. So we thought this could be a really cool place to beautify it and make it, you know,
18:11:12 friendly and happy for the children, um, and for the people that work there, too. So we asked them if that's something that they, um, were interested in, doing, like, a mural of some sort, and
18:11:22 Just getting that space to be a little bit more beautiful, because we would love to connect a local artist, um,
18:11:28 hoping and thinking that's gonna, you know, maybe feel good for them too, like, in their heart, to give back to the community.
18:11:33 Um, and again, just have people play along, do a fun contest, and…
18:11:38 let's just kind of get people, um…
18:11:41 having fun with it and excited.
18:11:44 Um, so if you want to go to the next one, Ryan?
18:11:47 Yep.
18:11:48 We, you know, we did kind of already…
18:11:50 We are a new den, and we already heard a little bit about what Den does, and protecting artists, and um…
18:11:57 So we knew we had… we knew there was something up with the contest and how to go about it, and what's the proper way to do it, so…
18:12:04 I'll let you take over, Ian.
18:12:06 Yeah. So, we knew to reach out to Dan because we were thinking, like, alright, who is someone that, like, really knows the artistic community, who would probably be the most reliable source,
18:12:17 to give us some professional insight, because, um, we don't really have
18:12:23 professional artists on staff.
18:12:25 Um, other than graphic designers, of course, but, um, so we went into meeting with Den,
18:12:31 Knowing that we were already interested in protecting the artist's work through, like, copyright, like, we…
18:12:38 We're already aware that, like, trying to have any claim over even, like, applications or, like, submissions, uh, and concepts was not something we were really interested in, because again,
18:12:49 This is something that we wanted to have as, like, a community opportunity to, like, bring people together.
18:12:54 And that seemed, uh, counterintuitive. Uh, we also wanted to seek out some suggested payment rates, which
18:13:01 is not Den's specialty, but any information was much appreciated.
18:13:06 Um, because again, it was a project that we really…
18:13:09 Um, didn't have a lot of experience about the muralist, um, world.
18:13:15 Uh, which is why we also reached out to him for some potential connections with the local artistic community, just to get the word out there, just to…
18:13:24 Um, let as many people around us know as possible, because again, this is supposed to be a community opportunity.
18:13:32 And so…
18:13:34 we found out soon enough that some of the thinking was pretty right, pretty good, but it was just kind of…
18:13:41 The wording that was… that was really finicky, like, um…
18:13:46 I think that, honestly, if we had not met with Den, we might have had…
18:13:50 Possibly one of those quirky rules sections, maybe not. Maybe a little bit too close to it.
18:13:57 Um, but…
18:14:00 Uh…
18:14:02 Right.
18:13:59 And so, probably called it a contest, right? Like, we were… we wanted to pay them something, of course, but, um, we still thought it would be, like, a contest where you submit some
18:14:10 Yes.
18:14:10 The reason why you want to do this and submit some work, and again, naive and not knowing, um, because we didn't have ill intent, we would never
18:14:18 then take people's work that they submitted, and if they didn't win, use it somewhere else. Um, so we were never going to do that, but we didn't realize we had to, you know, we have to write that stuff in to the contract and to the fine print, and let people know right from the get-go,
18:14:32 Because I guess, you know, we didn't know people were doing that.
18:14:35 Which is horrible.
18:14:35 Right, it's… it's like by omitting that information,
18:14:40 Uh, even though it's not something that we would ever, like, exploit, it's something that… still a red flag.
18:14:47 something that should still be covered,
18:14:49 And, like, legally stated within the, um…
18:14:53 guidelines of the contest.
18:14:55 But so, what we learned, um, from talking with Dan and just going over it a little bit,
18:15:00 Uh, we learn to view it more as, like, a contract employee.
18:15:04 Which is essentially what it is. You are paying for a service, uh, it's not like a full-time position or anything, but…
18:15:11 They do the job, they get paid for the time they put in for it,
18:15:14 Um, they have to apply, they have to go through a very standard application process.
18:15:20 And that was pretty much exactly what we did.
18:15:24 Uh, again, also the copyright. We knew and learned a bit about the wording, and just, again,
18:15:30 that it has to be stated, even though it's, like, in our heads and it's implied.
18:15:35 So, what… but, um…
18:15:38 it needed to be written out explicitly as possible.
18:15:42 And so we found that though the approach we had
18:15:45 was different, now that we have this information. The process was…
18:15:50 Just as simple as it would have been in the past, because we'd done contests in the past before, but nothing quite, I think, to this caliber, where…
18:15:58 We're connecting, uh, a local
18:16:01 organization with a local artist.
18:16:04 Um, I think that this was probably one of the larger contests… contests that we've done.
18:16:11 Um… and I think that because of that, we…
18:16:15 That's why we went through Den, we learned how to do it the right way, and it's information that we will take forever moving forward.
18:16:23 Um, but on to the next slide.
18:16:26 Uh, here it is.
18:16:25 Yeah, and that, just to add that… that last, um, bullet is…
18:16:29 So, just to, you know, reiterate that last bullet, again, I feel like we're so deeply speaking to the organizations in our community and stuff.
18:16:37 it really is just as simple. So you… we think we're gonna do a contest, because that's fun, light, easy, um…
18:16:45 But hiring an artist?
18:16:47 instead of the contest is equally as simple, and that's the right way to do it, and…
18:16:52 It just… that it was… I guess it's not as cumbersome as you might think. No matter what, even as a contest, we were gonna have some fine print, we were gonna have, you know, all these things in place, it's just the… again, as noted, the approach is a little different, but that…
18:17:06 is equally as simple, and we…
18:17:09 Highly suggest everyone go that route.
18:17:11 And Jim, too, he mentioned it so well, like,
18:17:14 I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna, you know, I need some electrical work. I'm gonna see… run a contest, see how much I can get done. But it just, like, your mind is, like, blown, and talking to Den, he really…
18:17:24 just simplified it. It's…
18:17:26 You're asking for resumes. You're going to be hiring somebody. It's, you know, you don't get this stuff for free in other, um,
18:17:33 areas of work. So, it was just, like, mind-blowing. Like, it's really that simple.
18:17:40 Sorry, I'm good.
18:17:41 No, no, no.
18:17:44 If you want to go over.
18:17:44 Do you want to cut this? Yeah, so this was just a screenshot from, um,
18:17:48 our webpage. So, um, you know, we kind of… we… after talking and done, we're like, okay, this is not a contest. Any kind of word… wording that we had, contest, we took it out, um, you know, just calling all artists,
18:17:59 Um, and you know, we just want somebody to make a difference in the community, and we invite you to share your vision.
18:18:05 Um, talked a little bit about the CAC and what they do.
18:18:08 Um, and, you know, if you're interested, you complete the form below, um,
18:18:14 you can… if some people had portfolios that weren't really able to be attached or too… too large, um, you can email us, and we can kind of go about it a different way.
18:18:23 Very simple qualifications we were asking, because we didn't need anything, um…
18:18:28 We didn't need somebody who had, you know, so many years of experience. We were willing to pay, of course, anyone to do this mural. If the CAC
18:18:36 if the vision of this artist matched what the CAC wanted, and they were brand new, and the CAC was okay with that, we're okay with that. So, we just kind of, you know, had samples of portfolio, didn't necessarily need, um, to be, you know,
18:18:48 10 murals in the past. Um, but just some kind of experience with, um, a mural, even if you were just co- you know, kind of helping somebody out with it.
18:18:59 the applicants should reside in Bristol County, because that's where the organization, the nonprofit is, so we really want to make it, um…
18:19:05 very much community, um, have a passion for inspiring the youth, so again,
18:19:10 part of the story you're telling is
18:19:13 meaningful in us picking an artist, because we wanted that to be, um,
18:19:18 you know, right up there with your work and how, um…
18:19:22 you know, how passionate you are for the art, why would you want to do something like this for the community? It was helpful to know as well.
18:19:29 Um, and then in here,
18:19:31 Um, actually, well, do you want to…?
18:19:34 Do you want to open up the webpage, Ryan, or do you… can you? Does it click through?
18:19:37 I don't know if I can do this, um…
18:19:38 No, okay. Well, the next slide, you have another screenshot, right? Or…
18:19:42 Terrific.
18:19:41 Yeah, yeah, it's just the… it's just a few more words of the bottom section of it.
18:19:46 Okay, so, um, we may not have a screenshot, we can open the web page if you need, but there was, like, a form.
18:19:52 Where it was just very simple, like, name, address, phone number, um, and attach your portfolio. But then there was a section to say, why would you want to do this project at the Children's Advocacy Center? And it was really cool seeing some of the messages that we saw in there, and, um, you never know
18:20:08 who you're tapping into, you know, people that have been
18:20:11 um, closely connected to the CAC, maybe a family member or…
18:20:15 um, have… they work with children, you know, all these different stories that we've seen.
18:20:19 But we did include the space and a rough estimate of how, um…
18:20:23 how long and tall the area was. So, it really is that little
18:20:29 kind of kitty wall that was just…
18:20:32 loom and doom and gray and grim, so we were hoping that they can beautify it to kind of match the other part of the space. Um, because actually where you see that break in the mural,
18:20:41 They have, um, dividers.
18:20:43 that they roll out, it's really like a shed, and they bring it out so that they can, um, therapists can talk to two different children at the same time. One can be in one space.
18:20:51 And it tends to be the bigger kids tend to be
18:20:55 in that space that already had paint and a mural on it. Um, and the little kids were on the other side.
18:21:01 So they're kind of getting gypped with that gray area, so…
18:21:05 Um, we knew it was going to be a little difficult, um, we wanted to show, you know, it's not a flat wall, it's…
18:21:11 Um, you know, it's a little unique of a wall, it's not your standard big
18:21:16 mural, um, that you see up against a building.
18:21:19 So, um, we were excited to see what the artists were gonna come up with.
18:21:24 We have the rules and regulations, um, fine print.
18:21:28 Um, and we just kept it really simple, and…
18:21:32 Essentially, you know, the biggest thing was, like, we do not own the rights
18:21:35 to any of the artwork or concepts submitted, which we'll go a little bit into that, um,
18:21:40 to that we… we really only…
18:21:45 got… the only artwork that was ever given was the mural created. So we asked for people's portfolio and experience, um,
18:21:52 And, um, and do we have… I'm sorry, am I jumping ahead, Ryan, of the process?
18:22:00 Okay, so we'll… we'll go…
18:21:59 Yeah, the process is after the rules, yeah. Of the, um…
18:22:04 Yeah.
18:22:03 how, like, the before and after, and how the mural ended up looking.
18:22:06 Okay, so we'll talk about the process of how we narrow it down, but again, the concept, we really… no one ever gave us any other options of murals that we were really…
18:22:16 able to use. So, um, everyone was protected, and anything that, um, they showed us.
18:22:22 Um, and… yeah, that's really just… it kept it pretty simple.
18:22:28 wanting them to feel protected.
18:22:28 Um, so the, um…
18:22:31 the process is kind of baked into what the rules and the regulations, so…
18:22:36 So, for example, like, the portfolio selection, which was between the deadline throughout March,
18:22:41 Um, we had a team of, uh, individuals from the First Citizen side of things.
18:22:46 Um, the charitable board to review all the submissions, like, all the things that we had gotten online, and narrow down
18:22:53 a list. I believe we narrowed it down to, I think, 3, or…
18:22:59 I think it would end up being 4, 4.
18:23:01 Yeah.
18:22:59 Is it 3 of you? Aiden? I was gonna say, I think we ended up going a little bit larger, so 4 muralists that we had, um, selected.
18:23:06 that we wanted to… Oh, yeah.
18:23:06 And back to Jim's… back to Jim's point, too, just want to add, none of us, you know… well, Ryan is actually an artist, but, um, we really… we had spoken to CAC and kind of knew what their vision, knew it was younger kids,
18:23:17 Yes.
18:23:17 Um, so… and again, it was that, kind of that section of why do you want to help
18:23:23 the Children's Advocacy Center and be part of this. So that's what the board was looking at, you know, what was their drive?
18:23:29 They all had portfolios, they're all able, you know, seemed… at least all the people that apply applied for this.
18:23:35 all seemed capable of doing a mural. Um, it was more the why and…
18:23:40 Um, just kind of looking, you know, some of the lighter work, um, there were ones that seemed to be a little bit maybe for
18:23:46 bigger teenagers or something. So that's kind of how they… they made their, um…
18:23:52 decision to narrow down.
18:23:54 Um, yeah, to 4. It was to 4.
18:23:57 Sorry, go ahead, Ryan.
18:23:58 Yeah, no, I just… I remember that it was, like,
18:24:02 It's interesting how you can see, just from some of the examples, like, I'm sure that if you ask the artists,
18:24:08 like, what, like, to make something bright and colorful for kids.
18:24:12 Um, then they can probably… they probably can work with that, but some of the artists, you can see that they have, like,
18:24:17 a little bit of, like, a darker repertoire behind them, and so, um, that, uh, incorporated with also maybe they didn't really have much of a connection with children,
18:24:28 or non-profits, or working with the community, and so…
18:24:32 That was the narrowing down process that we had selected for this one, because again, it was just…
18:24:36 Just to hit it home, we were really excited about having this be, like, a connection moment for the community, where someone that knows or works with kids
18:24:44 can, um, give back in some way to these children facing
18:24:48 horrible circumstances in their lives.
18:24:50 Um…
18:24:51 While still getting paid fairly, of course.
18:24:53 Yes, emphasis on paid.
18:24:55 It doesn't have to be, you know, from… it could be from the bottom of their heart and still…
18:25:00 be paid, so…
18:25:02 Um, so then, after we had the charitable board, uh, go through the list of individuals and narrow it down to four, then we had the, um, artists all
18:25:12 Take a quick tour of the Children's Advocacy Center, where they could learn a bit more about the organization, what they do. They could see the wall for the mural themselves, kind of get an idea, because it's not…
18:25:24 Not just, like, a flat wall, it's got, like, cracks all in it. It's got a rough terrain.
18:25:29 And so, obviously, like, a muralist would need to take that into account.
18:25:34 Um, especially because sometimes just being in the space around the other artwork that's already in that, uh, back, uh,
18:25:42 therapy space can kind of…
18:25:44 draw inspiration, or, um…
18:25:47 just kind of understand what the theme is, and so…
18:25:51 Uh, we had the artists afterwards. Within a week of the touring, they had to provide a concept of what they have.
18:25:58 Uh, for the mural, and then the final selection process came after that, and that was with the Children's Advocacy Center themselves.
18:26:06 Um, and we were, uh, in attendance as well, just to…
18:26:11 talk about, like…
18:26:14 the concepts that were submitted, as well as, like,
18:26:17 I think a large, um, focus for at least the Children's Advocacy Center was, like,
18:26:23 It wasn't so much who the best artist was, it was, like, who gets it. Like, who gets them, who gets the organization?
18:26:30 who really understands, um,
18:26:33 kind of the depth of what these children have to go through, or at least can empathize with it deeply enough, and for that to…
18:26:40 exhibit in the mural that they had, um…
18:26:44 concepted. And so, um, through that, then we selected the final MirrorOS, which we will get to.
18:26:50 Um… compensation was negotiated with the artist based on their experience, time, and materials.
18:26:58 pretty standard, I believe. Um, we… I think it ended up helping us
18:27:02 to let the artist sort of take the lead in that regard, because they are a professional, they should…
18:27:09 know the worth, what their rates are, and should have proper estimation of that information.
18:27:16 Um, and then copyright ownership, just again, this is the legal…
18:27:21 Like, we don't own it.
18:27:23 please…
18:27:29 I don't want to own it.
18:27:31 Um,
18:27:33 Um, the…
18:27:36 what was it? The applications?
18:27:39 And…
18:27:39 Yeah, and again, you know, the concepts that were…
18:27:42 Given we're just, like, truly just concepts. No one gave us, like, an exact what they, you know, a full drawing of what they envisioned or anything like that. It was more…
18:27:52 Um, again, what they envisioned with that rough terrain.
18:27:56 Um, and really, yeah, it was like a resume. You know, we had a bunch of different resumes.
18:28:01 Um, as we do when we hire for First Citizens,
18:28:04 We look for people that are community-driven and have to mesh with our vibe. You know, if we're hiring an accountant, you don't have to be the best accountant.
18:28:12 Uh, in accounting, you just… it could be a little bit of that. You have that experience, but also you want to do good things in the community, and you blend in well with our
18:28:20 team. So, that's kind of how we took it, um, and narrowing it down, and then kind of meeting them.
18:28:27 was important, just as in any interview.
18:28:29 Um, and yeah, hearing kind of what… if they, like Ryd said, if they get it.
18:28:33 And boy, I think, you know, majority got it, but boy, did one get it.
18:28:39 Yes, yeah, yeah, it really… it was interesting how…
18:28:44 Because I didn't get the opportunity to meet with all the artists, but Children's Advocacy Center, just meeting with them and hearing, like,
18:28:51 Um, just how the tours went, I think that ended up exhibiting
18:28:56 Like, that's what really pulled them to the artists that we ended up selecting.
18:29:00 Mm-hmm.
18:29:03 So, I believe these are pictures of what the wall was before.
18:29:05 Yeah.
18:29:06 Um, this was why we did the mural.
18:29:09 Uh, I believe they were almost trying to hide it, putting planters and so on in front of it.
18:29:18 Then…
18:29:20 This is the VR List. Melanie, if you wanna…
18:29:24 Yep, I think I just wanted to put my light on, it's so dark. Um, so this is Bridget, and she, um…
18:29:31 was the person that we decided to hire with their concept. Again, the board was able to narrow down, um,
18:29:37 Her art was very, you know, light, and…
18:29:40 um, happy, if you will. Um, and then her story was,
18:29:44 working with children, she's worked with children, um,
18:29:47 for, you know, as a career, and just… she's… she's very happy to give back to the community, so she was community-driven.
18:29:53 Um, and then when she went to the CAC, um, and presented, you know, kind of what her concept was, she didn't want to hide the wall. There was, uh, other artists, um, Bridget, um, version?
18:30:04 I don't want to pronounce… is it version?
18:30:05 Bridget Bannon. Bridget Bannon.
18:30:06 Bannon, okay. I was like, I should have had that right. It's gonna be written on one of the slides, I apologize.
18:30:12 On the next slide. Um, she… so she… so there was other artists, their concept was
18:30:19 hiding the cracks. You know, how much can we put on this wall to distract from the fact that it's not smooth?
18:30:27 Um, and Bridget…
18:30:29 made sure that that was not the case. She wanted to just really play with the cracks and show that
18:30:35 There's cracks in everything, and that's how the light gets in.
18:30:39 So, there she is, Bridget Bannon.
18:30:41 Um, so yeah, they connected so well with her, um,
18:30:46 Yeah.
18:30:46 the CAC, they had… they had a blast. Um, I think there might be potential for future things, um…
18:30:52 Yeah, the CAC was one of the last days when we went by, um, the CDC was talking about future things that they'd want to do with her.
18:30:59 Um, and yeah.
18:31:01 is really cool, really cool experience to see from beginning to end.
18:31:05 Um, looks so much better out there.
18:31:08 Um, they actually featured it on their, um…
18:31:12 their annual letter that they do, the annual, um…
18:31:13 annual report, annual report, I believe, yeah.
18:31:16 report that they bring out, they have out, it's like, I think the front page that they wanted to really highlight so everyone knew.
18:31:22 Um, yeah, so everyone… and then again, like Ryan mentioned, you know, we let Bridget kind of tell us
18:31:27 what it would cost for this kind of mural. We…
18:31:30 you know, talking to Dan, talking to, you know, he had us kind of, um…
18:31:34 chat with some others. We had an idea of what maybe the top would be, just so we were prepared for budgeting purposes.
18:31:40 Um, but yeah, Bridget gave us her…
18:31:43 you know, what her work costs and her time, and materials. Um, and we actually… we thought she was very… she was extremely fair, so we actually did go over what she, um,
18:31:54 had quoted us just because she was phenomenal.
18:31:57 She was definitely phenomenal, so…
18:31:59 Yeah, I… I definitely feel like…
18:32:02 just from experiencing not even the entire process, but from what I did experience,
18:32:07 and meeting Bridget. I think that it really does make a world of a difference.
18:32:12 when the artist is respected and treated like a professional.
18:32:16 that they are. Um, and, um…
18:32:20 I just think that that helps…
18:32:23 Everyone in the process, and I think that even the CAC, they loved meeting her, they loved working with her.
18:32:29 I think that when there's mutual respect going all around, I think that is…
18:32:34 probably why I would say that it succeeded so much, and I think that's probably in the future, something that they plan to keep
18:32:40 um, in mind moving forward, that this experience hopefully teaches them
18:32:45 that this is how to not do a design contest, or if you are going to do a contest,
18:32:50 run it like an application, which it is.
18:32:57 Absolutely.
18:32:58 Great.
18:32:59 Any questions at all?
18:33:03 Um, why don't we end the screen sharing, and um…
18:33:08 We might go back to it, but I wanted to emphasize, you guys did a great job.
18:33:13 And, um, just add that you…
18:33:16 treated the whole thing like, you know, people submitted their portfolios like a normal artist does when looking for a design job.
18:33:24 Um, you know, people didn't have to do a concept for you until you narrowed it down to a very small number of people.
18:33:32 And then, also, the thing that you ask them to describe, you know, why they're interested, what they, you know, what's their point of view.
18:33:39 That's the cover letter. It very much is, you know, that you did a design, um, hiring, not a design contest.
18:33:48 I was really proud of you.
18:33:50 Thank you.
18:33:50 Thank you, thanks. You know, really, we couldn't do it without you, Dan.
18:33:56 there was never going to be malice, like I said, you know, anything… we're trying to jip an artist or anything, but we would not have done it the proper, proper way unless we…
18:34:05 had, um, consulted with you, so thank you so much.
18:34:07 Well, I'm glad we did. Um, yeah, we don't… you know, practice best practice, we don't think that people are exploiting artists on purpose. We don't think they're, you know, malicious. We think they just don't know.
18:34:19 Yeah.
18:34:18 Um, it's… Jim was talking about the, uh, the artist paradox, and, you know, it's very much that.
18:34:24 Um, it's very much that people see things from their own points of view and have a hard time getting inside the head of somebody else, and that's one of the reasons we run these workshops.
18:34:33 Yeah, well, and ignorance is bliss, and we want to make sure everyone has knowledge, so… because knowledge is powerful, that's what we want.
18:34:41 Okay, there you go.
18:34:44 Margo, Helen, any… or Jim, any of you guys have anything more to ask about, or comments?
18:34:52 I do. Thank you.
18:34:55 Agora, what do you got?
18:34:56 Go for it.
18:34:57 Well, first of all, as an artist, I just really am…
18:35:00 you know, having gone through this many times in my life as a graphic artist and as a visual artist,
18:35:06 I just… I really relate to you asking people, or telling people that you wanted to know the why,
18:35:12 of why they wanted…
18:35:14 As a graphic designer, we always have to figure something out like that anyway, but…
18:35:19 you wanting to make that connection is huge.
18:35:22 Really is. So, you got better engagement because
18:35:27 You asked the right questions, too.
18:35:29 And you engaged artists who are like, oh, these are real people we really want to work with, not…
18:35:35 Yeah.
18:35:34 You know. So, I just wanted to give you that feedback, and having a connection…
18:35:39 to the place that you're putting something?
18:35:42 That's also huge.
18:35:44 for an artist. And I think a lot of public art might work better.
18:35:48 If it were done that way, you know?
18:35:50 Yeah.
18:35:51 Because once you know the place, and you have a connection, you treat it differently.
18:35:55 Yeah.
18:35:56 It's not about your ego, it's about your connection. So I think it's just beautiful what you did, and I think it's a great
18:36:03 Um, framework for other people to use, so…
18:36:07 I'm hoping we can advertise this widely.
18:36:11 Thank you.
18:36:12 Thank you. No, thank you.
18:36:12 Thank you.
18:36:14 Yeah, I think it's terrific the way you did it, and…
18:36:18 Thinking about it, really the… the key to
18:36:23 an ethical art contest is either…
18:36:28 The requested submission has no intrinsic commercial value to be exploited.
18:36:35 It's a demo piece.
18:36:38 Um, and you're not going to… you're basically not asking somebody to work for free to create a thing.
18:36:44 that you then own. Definitely the, the, the…
18:36:48 contestants get to keep the rights to whatever it is that they create, whether…
18:36:52 Um, they win or not.
18:36:54 I love the idea of starting off with a portfolio review for all the contestants.
18:36:58 And you pick the finalists who are going to move forward, so you're not asking…
18:37:03 dozens or hundreds of people to put in hours creating something on the off chance that they might be the lucky one.
18:37:12 Um, and I've seen, I mean, I've seen national companies do art, you know,
18:37:16 create our ad campaign for us from Hebrew National about 20 years ago.
18:37:21 No, I have a great idea, you can't have it for free.
18:37:25 And I think that that's really it. And it is…
18:37:31 Um, people do come up with this stuff with the best of intentions, but I've always told people,
18:37:37 If it's not in the contract, it's not in the deal.
18:37:41 And you need to close all those doors and button that all up, and explicitly say, yes, you retain the rights to your artwork, unless we buy it at the end because you're the winner.
18:37:53 Things like that, so…
18:37:55 I think you guys did a great job, and it's a great-looking mural.
18:37:59 It's beautiful.
18:37:59 And I think I want to emphasize, too, um, you know, a couple of things. One, um, that
18:38:05 in the course of hashing out the, um, the, uh…
18:38:10 guidelines and the rules for the submissions.
18:38:14 they understood why we needed to make it clear how we were going to treat the rights.
18:38:20 that the rates were going to be, um, important to have it explicit that they don't own anything, um, until they've paid for something, and then they only own what they're paid for, and that will be clear.
18:38:32 Um, that also gives the artist a chance to pull out at any point in the process.
18:38:37 Um, if they can't come to an agreement, that's just a negotiation. So, it's important to do that. The other thing that I think you mentioned that I want to emphasize is that
18:38:49 Most places… actually, Jim and Melanie both mentioned this, most places are not having
18:38:56 artists and graphic designers and things make the decisions, um, and that gets us some really bad
18:39:03 you know, results. You know, there's a… there's a, um…
18:39:08 a logo that was done in our area that was done through a contest, and
18:39:13 And in some contexts, it works fine, but it doesn't have a horizontal version, it doesn't have a vertical version, it doesn't work if you take it to two-color, um, or a certain two colors anyway.
18:39:27 it's being used, but it doesn't attract attention, and it was because it was, you know, it was not…
18:39:33 Um, done by people who understand logos, um, you know, and there are things like that that happen. You need
18:39:40 some people who have the skills
18:39:43 to… to actually judge whether this is gonna work.
18:39:46 Um, and in this case, the mural case, you know,
18:39:50 the people who were making the judgment were people who knew the kids, and had to work for the kids. In other cases, you're doing it for the population you're trying to advertise to, and, you know, you have to… you can't just ask the people you're advertising to, is this gonna work?
18:40:05 Um, you have to understand how, you know, what you're looking for does and doesn't
18:40:10 need to be used.
18:40:13 Yeah, Dan, you ruined me. I see these contests all the time now. You know, I just… I can't unsee it.
18:40:20 you know, some, you know, it's our 100th anniversary, we're looking for a new logo, or we want a t-shirt for this year's festival, you know, send in your work, and…
18:40:28 I'm like, wow! And then I always think, too, how you guys, you know, have mentioned, they now have…
18:40:35 so much ammunition for years to come. They can make t-shirts for the next 300 years with all the submissions they have, you know? This is this year's winner, um, but next year could be another t-shirt and another t-shirt. They have all these…
18:40:46 Um, concepts and logos and designs and…
18:40:49 Um, yeah, it's like me and Ryan, actually, just yesterday were talking about, um… was it yesterday that I was ignorant to this, but the Super Bowl, the artists playing at the Super Bowl doesn't get paid.
18:40:59 Oh my god.
18:41:00 And yeah, and you know, not that… I don't know much about it, but not that I'm sure these
18:41:07 million-dollar artists, you know, whatever, need more millions, but the NFL certainly doesn't either, so they… they have a gig, they should be paying
18:41:15 I think. That's, you know…
18:41:17 That's how it should work.
18:41:18 I'm sure they sell merch.
18:41:20 Yeah.
18:41:21 Well, most, most performing artists, now musicians, you know, everybody has to go through Live Nation, they own everything.
18:41:28 womb-to-tomb, cradle to grave, um, and the bulk of the income that most performing musicians earn nowadays is from their merchandise.
18:41:37 Pretty much. Yeah, maybe they show up with a bunch of merch, but I can't imagine how many people are going to watch
18:41:41 the Super Bowl because of the artists, you know? So they're getting all these extra eyeballs, they're making so much money off.
18:41:48 Oh, yeah.
18:41:47 Um, this free performance. Kind of… kind of crazy. Makes you think, Jen. Makes… you're making us think.
18:41:52 And I mean…
18:41:52 Well, that's… that's good, and I hope that you will continue to spread this once we get this out. Every time I see a design contest, I send something to people and say,
18:42:00 Yeah.
18:42:05 Yeah.
18:42:01 Bad idea, think about this. Um, and hopefully you guys will be, you know, on the team doing that, too. We gotta get artists to, you know, agree to stop. That's a big… that's a big thing. But also, we gotta teach the businesses and other organizations.
18:42:16 And, Jim, you brought up music. That's another thing that, um, you know, having run some, some, um,
18:42:24 things where we do, um, where we did, you know, like, benefit concerts, things like that.
18:42:30 I've never asked a musician to play for free.
18:42:36 always said, we will pay you, and if you want to donate it back, that's fine, but now you get a tax write-off.
18:42:42 Um, and, um…
18:42:44 you know, so that people are not…
18:42:48 being, you know, asked to, um, to do something, you know, as if
18:42:53 their ver- their work is not valuable. You want them there for a reason? Pay them.
18:42:57 And they… if they want to donate, they can donate. And then everybody's right up on top.
18:43:03 That's a really important point. Um…
18:43:05 According to the IRS, as an artist,
18:43:09 If you create a work of art and donate it to an organization so that they can auction it off or whatever,
18:43:16 Um, to raise money, you are only allowed to deduct the cost of the materials that you paid to create the work. You are not allowed to
18:43:25 to deduct
18:43:26 the value of your time.
18:43:29 Um, at all. So, what you do is you sell that piece of art to that organization and then donate the money back.
18:43:37 Um, and I talk about in my…
18:43:39 one of my posts that I just put in the chat,
18:43:42 And about the artist's paradox.
18:43:44 Somebody wants me to do something for free for a non-profit organization. I say no.
18:43:49 here's what I'll do. If I like you,
18:43:52 I will give you an invoice for the full value of the job.
18:43:55 And then I will donate that
18:43:58 I'll zero it out and take it as, you know, but…
18:44:02 I have an invoice saying that I donated a job worth X, and it's an in-kind donation.
18:44:08 Um, but, you know, most people don't know that, and a lot of artists tend to avoid wanting to
18:44:14 about business, because we have to uphold the myth of the starving artist.
18:44:20 And there's a reason we starve.
18:44:22 Yeah.
18:44:22 The buck stops here.
18:44:26 No? Nope.
18:44:26 Well, we try and make sure that the buck stops in your pocket.
18:44:30 I like that.
18:44:33 All right.
18:44:33 I'm gonna steal them.
18:44:35 Yeah.
18:44:35 Um, anything else that we want to add in? We've got a lot more to say about art auctions and stuff like that. That's a workshop that's still on our list, um, that…
18:44:43 Yeah.
18:44:43 That we want to do. Um, and art donations as well. But, um, in this context, you know, it's a relevant feature, but again, we have to always think that
18:44:54 The creatives that we're asking to do stuff
18:44:58 are workers. They're, you know, they're professionals, they've trained, they know how to do this.
18:45:02 Um, and they're going to be putting effort into it, both, you know, mental work and, um,
18:45:08 Yep.
18:45:08 You know, and physical work, um, and you would never ask a, you know, you would never ask,
18:45:13 A lawyer to do this, you know, to give you a brief and, you know, get 100 lawyers to give you a brief on something, and then decide which one is going to be paid to actually represent you in court. That's insane.
18:45:25 Um, and that's what you're doing, you know, with design contests.
18:45:29 Um, and nobody would ever think to do it.
18:45:32 you know, um, with most other professions, that's just nuts.
18:45:38 Any other final?
18:45:41 I know that the Graphic Artist Guild has guidelines for how to run ethical art contests. I don't have them printed out here, but…
18:45:48 They do exist, so…
18:45:48 Okay. But if you find them, send them and we'll put them in our resources when we put this up online as well.
18:45:54 Um, and um…
18:45:54 Yeah.
18:45:56 With that, I think that we will close things out.